[UntilThen]

Pct I respect everyone's jokes too. No matter how bad, I'll just laugh it away.

It must be better than my hamster jokes.

 

[pctazhp]

Unless you see a yellow Trail it wasn't him, I have at least 10 rose bushes out back and he stayed right away from him, lift your leg one time on those bushes and miss you know what I'm talking about!

I'm sure glad you don't follow me around when I go for my walks in the park.

 

[pctazhp]

Pct I respect everyone's jokes too. No matter how bad, I'll just laugh it away.

It must be better than my hamster jokes.

 
?????

 

[DecentLevi]

 
Hi DL, thanks for the thorough and meticulously documented report on the Valvo EL12; very good work indeed!
 
Two questions:

• Have you an opinion between your (oval plate) Valvos and the much admired here (round plate) Telefunken EL12 ST? (that is, if you actually own the latter)
• What kind of music did you use for your critical listening sessions?

 

Yes it's my impression that the ST-shaped EL12's retain all that's good about the EL12N's including soundstage, imaging, dynamics, etc. but have more of a linear FR and better bass definition, as opposed to the EL12N's which seem noticeably brighter.
 
I actually use a variety of music for each A/B comparison including including pop, rock and electronica songs that I thought were well mastered. If you'll notice, all of these type of songs I use to test systems are heavily rhythmic. I would never use something like ambient, classical / symphonic or even most jazz for testing audio equipment because you need something with drums like a bass / kick drum and hard hitting snare drum to hear the dynamics distinctly... not to mention cymbals for the all important highs, and vocals too. Without that you may hear something that sounds excellent for the likes of classical, but once the drums kick in you may notice something is not right.
 

... As I was writing about my assessment of the EL11/12[n] as "dynamic" but not bright overall, I was also listening to the Bartók Concerto for Orchestra; The Miraculous Mandarin / Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra; Riccardo Chailly. This is one sharply biting piece of symphonic music, at the same time when the Chailly/RCO rendering is typically one three–dimensional recording.
 
The EL11/12 rendering was so ear–piercing on my HD600s that I had to stop the music and switch back to the stock configuration. Period. The latter was hardly perfect, in that it lacked a certain three–dimensionality which is a most difficult task on a pair of headphones, especially given the 'flatness' of the music itself (which in some way contradicts the effort put on the recording) as well as the fact that symphonic works seem to be notoriously hard to render on headphones anyway. Still, the result was much more bearable when all the high notes were attacking my HD600s; and, of course, quite enjoyable when the music was much more spread within the harmonic spectrum.
 
Therefore, for one thing, this post is an update/amendment on my prior impression of the EL11/12 combo. Given that so many people here swear by it, I reserve my final assessment until further listening.
...

OK, I'm not the only one who things RFT / Telefunken EL11 + EL12N are both bright, especially together. But they can pair quite nicely with dark or rhythm-less recordings, or headphones that are darker than HD-650. 

 

[HOWIE13]

   
I actually use a variety of music for each A/B comparison including including pop, rock and electronica  I would never use something like ambient, classical / symphonic or even most jazz for testing audio equipment 
 
OK, I'm not the only one who things RFT / Telefunken EL11 + EL12N are both bright, especially together. But they can pair quite nicely with dark or rhythm-less recordings, or headphones that are darker than HD-650. 

 
I'm surprised by the first statement since we usually hear tubes alike, yet for assessments you never listen to Classical and I never listen to pop, rock and electronica.
 
I agree the EL12N is a fairly bright driver, but I don't personally find it so as a power tube - it's clear, dynamic and exciting.
As I suggested in an earlier post which you may not have read yet, I think you might prefer the EL12spez as a driver.
 
The headphone is as you say crucial to handling treble and since I have all three cans I would say that whilst the unmodded Senns are good, the T1g2 handles treble better than either of them, retaining refinement, without grain, extending effortlessly with controlled and seamless grace.

 

[UntilThen]

I agree the EL12N is a fairly bright driver, but I don't personally find it so as a power tube - it's clear, dynamic and exciting.

Right on Howie. I couldn't agree more. Dynamic and exciting but never over bright.

I'm talking about EL12N not Miss Universe.

 

[mordy]

Hi UT and Howie13 et al,
 
ATM I am listening to an all EL12 setup: two EL12 as power tubes and a pair of RFT EL12N as drivers. This is great sound with that wonderful extra energy that is so rare.
 
At first I tried the EL12 power tubes with the little Russian twins 6N23P - nice but too bright.
 
Then I tried the pseudo VT231 K-Rs (RCA 6N7GTB). Much better and more balanced and not too bright, but the "mythical energy" was missing.
 
So onto the quad EL12/N, but there was a problem: H U M.
 
As i mentioned earlier, I fashioned a far out Faraday cage of a piece of aluminum foil. Wrapped it around one of the power tubes - no change in the hum. Then I wrapped it around the second one. To my surprise, when I moved around the foil I found a position that almost completely eliminated the hum - not audible at practical. normal to loud listening levels.
 
But that rumpled look doesn't go with this sophisticated forum, so I shaped the foil tight around the tube - the hum came back with a vengeance. Than it dawned upon me that the foil needs to touch the transformer housing/chassis of the Elise. In other words, I wrapped it around the tube and extended a piece to touch the transformer housing. Voila - the hum is gone!
 
It ain't pretty but works very well. I have no explanation why it works - maybe some kind of grounding effect. The foil just touches the glass envelope and the chassis.
 

 

[HOWIE13]

  Hi UT and Howie13 et al,
 
ATM I am listening to an all EL12 setup: two EL12 as power tubes and a pair of RFT EL12N as drivers. This is great sound with that wonderful extra energy that is so rare.
 
At first I tried the EL12 power tubes with the little Russian twins 6N23P - nice but too bright.
 
Then I tried the pseudo VT231 K-Rs (RCA 6N7GTB). Much better and more balanced and not too bright, but the "mythical energy" was missing.
 
So onto the quad EL12/N, but there was a problem: H U M.
 
As i mentioned earlier, I fashioned a far out Faraday cage of a piece of aluminum foil. Wrapped it around one of the power tubes - no change in the hum. Then I wrapped it around the second one. To my surprise, when I moved around the foil I found a position that almost completely eliminated the hum - not audible at practical. normal to loud listening levels.
 
But that rumpled look doesn't go with this sophisticated forum, so I shaped the foil tight around the tube - the hum came back with a vengeance. Than it dawned upon me that the foil needs to touch the transformer housing/chassis of the Elise. In other words, I wrapped it around the tube and extended a piece to touch the transformer housing. Voila - the hum is gone!
 
It ain't pretty but works very well. I have no explanation why it works - maybe some kind of grounding effect. The foil just touches the glass envelope and the chassis.
 

Hi mordy
 
These hums can be a bummer to sort out, and you did it- great!
 
Many times it's just a matter of cleaning the pins and checking the socket connections.
Sometimes hum is induced by the transformers of adjacent equipment, or by electronic equipment in the house and requires a trial and error approach to identify.
Some tubes only hum in certain sockets, or when paired with certain tubes. Replacing a quiet tube can sometimes eliminate hum from a tube in a different socket- very weird.
Then there's the attempt to try and shield the tube and improve the grounding and you have done both here.
Sometimes you can have an aberrant tube that sounds fine but just idiosyncratically hums without any solution. These I don't usually discard because they may be fine in other/future equipment, though hum without obvious cause like this can also be a sign of a dying/bad tube, so would need to be used with care. Some would discard anyway.
Quite often hum is headphone dependent-my HD650's and X2's are much more prone to pick up hum from my system than my K701 or T1, for instance. Maybe that's partly due to the different frequency responses of the headphones, their construction, or to their different cords
 
The quad  EL12N tube set-up doesn't hum in my system so I suspect one of your tubes is behaving unusually in this respect, If you move them around into different sockets the hum may go, otherwise it's the foil or another of the myriad of tube rolling possibilities for you with these excellent tubes in Elise.
 
Enjoy! 

 

[UntilThen]

 
Then I tried the pseudo VT231 K-Rs (RCA 6N7GTB). Much better and more balanced and not too bright, but the "mythical energy" was missing.
 

 
Basically this... going to 6SN7 you will miss that mythical energy of the EL11 and EL12. Coming home and dinner finished, listening to Holy Cole with the EL tubes on HD650. It's just pure bliss.
 
A check on tracking shows that La Figaro 339 is in Sydney. 

 

 

[angpsi]

Hi guys,
 
As promised, today was my turn to try the tin foil hat solution. I can concur that it works. Kudos to @HOWIE13 who originally thought of the tin foil wrap.
 


Still, I don't go the lengths @mordy did with wrapping the whole tube. Instead I started off immediately with wrapping the anode cable and trying to simulate the pinching effect. I also experimented with grounding, as per @pctazhp's suggestion. Oddly enough any attempts to touch ground failed to reduce the humming. Instead, leaving the ground wire hanging in the air seems to work fine, albeit I have to [re]position according to the tubes I'm using (see below)! Finally, using tin foil on the anode wire without some sort of 'pinching effect' didn't work: looks like the latter is an important part of the equation.
 
So far I've only tried the 12spez as powers. My initial experiments were with the EL12n as drivers. When I substituted the latter for the RFT EL11 I had to move the 'ground' cable to a different position to get rid of the humming.
 
The sound of the TFK EL12spez is indeed dynamic. Clear separation and black background are also characteristic parts of the sound signature, but I'd say the most pronounced part is its 'energy', as so many of you seem to agree. Combined with the EL12n as drivers, the sound was darker; whereas combined with the EL11, the sound was [actually, is—I'm still listening to this combo] brighter and more resolving. Listening to the La La Land score, which is my—as of lately—go–to music for rhythmic rendering and articulated mids, they play amazingly, with great reserves of energy combined with resolution. Therefore, I certainly understand how the lot can be appealing to rhythmic tunes and analytical cans. On the other hand, listening to Bartok's Concerto for Orchestra (RCO/Chailly/Decca, same record as the Mandarin) I can hear every note clearly but I feel that their very dynamic presentation makes them too harsh for the HD600 (e.g. in this track the highs are hardly bearable, to my ears). If I were to summarize, I'd say the rendering is precise but quite forward in comparison to other combos. Still, I don't see myself returning to the EL12/12n combo, as I find this set to be very impressive by comparison. Perhaps I'll just switch them around from driver to power and vice versa, for the interest of science.
 
At this point, it makes sense to reserve these as just my initial impressions. As @hypnos1 said, these may benefit from burn–in; therefore I'll give them a chance to develop over the next few days. New readers should also consider that I'm neither familiar with headphones, nor tubes for that matter. My background comes from speakers and solid state amps, therefore I'm merely educating myself as I go.
 
As per usual, here's the photoshoot from my escapades.
 
For reference purposes, this is the 'pinching effect' I mentioned earlier. Namely, that my buzzing adapters stop buzzing once I pinch them on the anode wire.

 
Tin foil hat. Doesn't work without 'pinching'.

 
This works!

 
This also works! That's how I roll at this very moment. Notice that neither of the wires are touching anything. All my attempts to ground them produce buzzing.

 
Not quite at @hypnos1's level of expertise, but getting there!

 
This is the EL12spez/12n combo.

 
And this is the EL12spez/El11 combo.

 
Notice how the brown cable on the left tube is moved slightly. Once I attached the EL11, my previous configuration started buzzing. Moving the left cable fixed things.

 

[UntilThen]

@thatonenoob  are you ready with the review of Elise? 

 

[angpsi]

Oh, I forgot: this works too!
 
First impression is that the combo retains its general characteristics, yet it sounds like it's a bit more held back (nice and airy, though, with lots of detail). Bartok's full charge on the high notes still a challenge for my HD600s.
 
What do you say @hypnos1?
 
P.S. Waiting for my TFK EL12 regular STs to arrive. Perhaps an all TFK ELst/ ELspez might turn things around, 'cause I remember the EL12spez/EL12n combo to be less bright.
 

 

[HOWIE13]

  Oh, I forgot: this works too!
 
First impression is that the combo retains its general characteristics, yet it sounds like it's a bit more held back (nice and airy, though, with lots of detail). Bartok's full charge on the high notes still a challenge for my HD600s.
 
What do you say @hypnos1?
 
P.S. Waiting for my TFK EL12 regular STs to arrive. Perhaps an all TFK ELst/ ELspez might turn things around, 'cause I remember the EL12spez/EL12n combo to be less bright.
 

So pleased everything is working out well. You are on a steep, and I'm sure enriching, learning curve. I must try the pinching effect on the power tubes.
 
I would think your Elise is still bedding in too, and will improve further over the next few weeks.
 
You also have fantastic and demanding music for Elise to reproduce as an excellent test for the system. 

 

 

[Frederick Rea]

ELISE without good music is "nothing"
 
http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/chasing-the-dragon-records/

 

[angpsi]

  ELISE without good music is "nothing"
 
http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/chasing-the-dragon-records/

Hah! Interesting!
http://chasingthedragon.co.uk/binaural-sample.mp4